Euro 2012 Finals

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nzfooty
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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby nzfooty » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:16 am

eujin wrote:And so it ends. Crazy group, great drama at the end. I didn't quite get to see both the Poles and the Czechs playing the last ten minutes with five strikers each as I was hoping, but I think UEFA have got their tie-breaker rules exactly right. I was half expecting the Poles to get a late goal and send their "friends" from Russia through, but I can't argue with the Russians throwing everything at the Greeks for almost a whole half and coming up short. It will be interesting to hear if nzfooty thinks Russia have suffered a great injustice due to their better record against the Czech Republic.


I think over the three matches Russia were the better team and played more attractive football so it is a pity to see them go out in this fashion.

But ignoring that fact, I never said goal difference is always the better system. I said it is on the balance of things it is the better system. There are examples where head-to-head can work better. It's just I can think think of more cases where it does not work as well.

On a different subject, why are you using 'nzfooty' in the third person? It sounds like you are speaking to the gallery. This isn't a point-scoring debate. There is no one there. We put everyone to sleep. :smt015

:smt006

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby nzfooty » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:28 am

Group A

Russia 0-1 Greece
Czech Rep 1-0 Poland


Code: Select all

1. Czech Rep   3 2-0-1  4:5  -1  6
2. Greece      3 1-1-1  3:3   0  4
----------------------------------
3. Russia      3 1-1-1  5:3  +2  4
4. Poland      3 0-2-1  2:3  -1  2 


Group B

Denmark v Germany
Portugal v Holland

German +2 6
Portuga 0 3
Denmark 0 3
Holland -2 0

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby sjc_three » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:45 am

Well, the Polish OB will breath a sigh of relief. Couldn't have happened to two nicers sets of fans! (Yes, I have heard the expressions about the pot calling the kettle black!)

Means UEFA will presumably have considerably less opportunity to be giving awkward answers about not hearing monkey chants at games. They'll be pleased too.

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby just because » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:05 am

I put 10 000 won on Czech republic to go all the way at 88/1 before the tourney....thought that was dead and buried after the russian game but hope springs alive.

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby nzfooty » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:25 am

sjc_three wrote:Well, the Polish OB will breath a sigh of relief. Couldn't have happened to two nicers sets of fans! (Yes, I have heard the expressions about the pot calling the kettle black!)

Means UEFA will presumably have considerably less opportunity to be giving awkward answers about not hearing monkey chants at games. They'll be pleased too.


This is a little harsh. Poland has a significant % of Neanderthals following the team but the vast majority of the fans are like from any other country. They go to matches to see their team win but above to have fun. I don't think everyone should be painted with the same brush. Just like not all Liverpool fans are racist because of the monkey chants of one fan last season in the FA Cup. Likewise, not everyone is racist in the UK despite incidents of racism in Britain's police force, London riots and a number of racially motivated murders. Despite these incidents the UK is among the most progressive countries in terms of race relations, because rather than just the negatives you look at the whole.

Poland does have a serious problem in its club football with appalling levels of violence and racist chanting. However, and I might be wrong but as far as I know the only racist incident involving Poles was the one with the Dutch players at a training ground in Krakow. It was also an anti-Euro protest by a segment of disgruntled Wisla "fans" keen on ruining the atmosphere (which of course does not excuse the chants) and generally making a nuisance of themselves.

A lot has been written about problems of this nature in Poland as a result of this tournament. Some is very fair and the Poles really need to have a good look at themselves, esp. as how they perceive themselves in what happened during WWII and as to what happened straight after (re the remaining Jewish population). I thought this was a fairly good article:
A Polish village's forgotten Jewish dead
Another one is the stereotypes people have of non- Europeans. Here it is more about lack of knowledge than some aggressive attitudes. Violent attacks (unlike further east in Europe, esp. Russia) are actually quite uncommon.
See a perspective of aTottenham fan who has lived 10 years in Poland.

However, there has also been a lot of sensationalistic crap. Some articles were so unrefined that you couldn't escape feeling the glee some commentators felt that they (thought they) could get away with bashing a whole nation. Some people do not get the fact that labelling a whole nation as racists (based on a actions of a minority) is in itself racism.

Daily Mail readers reacting online to the paper's coverage of "the vile racist storm engulfing Euro 2012": "Not sure why poland and ukraine got this tournament, they are backward"; "What else do you expect from backward uncivilised countries. No sports tournaments what so ever should be held in eastern Europe till they learn to stop being aggressive barbarians and learn to be more civilised"; "They all live in the eighteenth century"; "Maybe the Dutch should expel all Poles from the Netherlands"; plus: "Why people in ukraine and poland so idiot?"


On a more positive note, at least with regards to Poland is this article by Paul Wilson who thinks Poland seem to have done an okay job so far organising the tournament and should've gone alone:
Poland have all the fun in partnership of unequals

He also goes on to complain about the expansion of the championship to 24 countries.

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby eujin » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:10 pm

nzfooty wrote:Who said it was fair and square? Ah, you did. Possibly the entire Swedish team went down with food poising on the day. Perhaps the referees decision sent them the wrong way. Perhaps they had key suspensions etc. etc. That's why you look at the total 270 minutes, not just the 90.

That's rather the key point of cup football though isn't it? Barcelona may have done better against Bayer Leverkusen than Chelsea did, but Chelsea won the head-to-head. It doesn't mean that Chelsea are scientifically the better team, or Barcelona don't play the more attacking football, but it does mean that Chelsea deserve to go through , because they won the head-to-head fair and square. We don't decide the European Champions by a marathon league season, it's a cup tournament. The groups are there to make sure everyone who travels gets a few games, but the knockout mentality, best team on the day, is still very much part and parcel of becoming champion. If you're comparing with 36 other matches over an entire year then maybe it is fairer to look at the bigger picture, but we're only comparing with two other matches and the possibility for large unfair fluctuations is still very much there. Anyway, it was 3-0 in the example, imaginary Sweden can have no complaints.

I don't expect people are following the details of team A beating team C hypothetical examples (you're not even following them), but others obviously are reading the thread and others might be interested in the general topic of whether head-to-head is fairer than goal difference, particularly after last night. We're not the only football fans discussing this topic at this very moment.

nzfooty wrote:It also does not offer incentives for attacking football. It leaves teams fearful of losing.

Your glass is half empty. If you beat a team in the first match you're almost guaranteed to finish above them.

nzfooty wrote:I am looking forward to seeing what "3rd system" you come up. Good luck.

A modest proposal: If teams end level on points then for every non head-to-head match they win by one goal deduct one tie-breaker point and for every non head-to-head match they lose by one goal add one tie-breaker point. If that doesn't separate them, then do the same by changing each result by two goals. Keep going until your total goals added or subtracted is equal to the highest score difference.

That would see Spain through in your example if they beat Turkey by two goals in the final match.
That would see Norway through in my example.
That would mean team A hadn't necessarily won the group in your other example. B win 2-0 and A lose and B top the group.

The philosophy behind it is that matches decided by one goal are more "flukey" than matches decided by five goals. It gets at the "marginal goal" concept, what would've happened if. In my example it would send Norway through no matter how many goals Sweden scored against Turkey. It would also send Greece through last night. It would've knocked Italy out in 2004 but without the stitch-up accusations. It's not particularly simple and it's not clear what should be done with draws, but I think it covers all our objections so far. I actually still think I prefer the head-to-head rule though. In a three-way tie with everyone beating everyone, you would still end up going to results against the fourth team. Maybe if you ran it first on the head-to-head matches only, and then ran it on non-head-to-head. Getting complicated...

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby eujin » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:58 pm

Nah, it doesn't quite work. :wink:

How does it work in rugby? If A beats B in a close one and then B beats C by 8 points and scores 4 tries, then there's nothing C can do in the last match against A to catch up with B? Same problem here.

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby eujin » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:10 pm

How about just dropping the "goals for in head-to-head matches" criterium? Then it goes straight to overall goal difference after goal difference in head-to-heads. That way, no 2-2 stitch-ups, but teams can still win the group early on a head-to-head.

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby sjc_three » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:41 pm

nzfooty wrote:
sjc_three wrote:Well, the Polish OB will breath a sigh of relief. Couldn't have happened to two nicers sets of fans! (Yes, I have heard the expressions about the pot calling the kettle black!)

Means UEFA will presumably have considerably less opportunity to be giving awkward answers about not hearing monkey chants at games. They'll be pleased too.


This is a little harsh. Poland has a significant % of Neanderthals following the team but the vast majority of the fans are like from any other country.

The OB comment was more to do with the fighting the other day. Don't doubt you're right about the majority of Polish fans. The 2nd line, was just an excuse to express my irritation at UEFA's consistent sweeping under the carpet of the whole issue, slapping down tiny meaningless fines once in a while that have zero impact. I thought Van Bommel's comment after the Dutch training incident summed it up nicely. "If people can't hear it, it's because they don't want to hear it."

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby daeguowl » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:23 pm

I watched the Germany match last night in the fan park in Hamburg. Weird atmosphere. Although most people were wearing Germany shirts, there was no real spontaneous cheering. From time to time some people were singing what I assume to be Germany's official Euro12 song which seems to be an ode to Oompa Lumpas. My korean colleague was hoping to hug a hot German chick in the German goal celebrations but Hamburg is devoid of any even half-decent women...

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby eujin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:18 am

Confusion reigns over the tie-breakers. ESPN got it wrong, the Danish press got it wrong, several commentators have got it wrong. No wonder teams occasionally get these things wrong. The Danish defender Lars Jacobsen was saying after the match that if Denmark hadn't conceded that late goal against Portugal then they would be through. This is also wrong.

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby sjc_three » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:54 pm

Come on England! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fej0t2CBD5s&feature=related

Would love it if we could somehow snatch that top spot. It's been too long since we kicked a ball in anger against Italy.

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby eujin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:10 pm

sjc_three wrote:Come on England! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fej0t2CBD5s&feature=related

Would love it if we could somehow snatch that top spot. It's been too long since we kicked a ball in anger against Italy.

Peter Beardsely, what a legend. I thought you'd stopped caring. I thought it was only our Scottish contingent who were secretly following how England get on. England vs Italy would be good, but I'd also love to see them dump Spain out (Croatia so nearly did). That'd bring back a few memories of 1996.

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby sjc_three » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:04 pm

Spain were robbed in 96. They should have had a golden goal prior to penalties that was disallowed. I doubt we'd get as far as extra time if we played them now. And I didn't give a shit, right up to the day of the first England game - and then all it took was the press conference and I was hooked again. They better not mess it up again tonight. That would be typical England.

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Re: Euro 2012 Finals

Postby Pikey » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:56 pm

The coverage has started to veer slightly towards "how many do we need to top France", rather than "can we beat Ukraine?" That's pretty dangerous for England. As it is, I think both games will finish as a draw. Sweden can raise their game against better teams, and will want to restore some pride
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