Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

AFC Champions League, Asian Cup, and everything else domestic and international.
User avatar
nzfooty
K-League Classic champion
K-League Classic champion
Posts: 6004
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:18 pm
Contact:

Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby nzfooty » Tue May 28, 2013 2:37 pm

John Duerden in the Guardian:

Socceroos' future bound up in Asia

Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

When Australia faced Japan at the 2006 World Cup their squad teemed with European-based players. How times have changed


"Did you see the interview with Jürgen Klopp when he said that Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world?" asks Sydney-born defender Eddy Bosnar. "For a coach like Klopp to say that, it shows how good Japan are. Nobody is saying that kind of thing about Australian players these days."


More here.

User avatar
eujin
K-League Classic champion
K-League Classic champion
Posts: 5142
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:04 pm
Location: Hanover, Germany

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby eujin » Tue May 28, 2013 6:21 pm

Hey nzfooty! Welcome back! I trust all is well with you.

No one in the article seems to be relating Australia's relative decline to their move from the OFC to AFC, although they seem to coincide reasonably well time-wise. A lot of the blame seems to go on Osieck for not developing younger players. One might argue that a relatively easier path to the World Cup allows the national coach to bleed more younger players than needing to rely on experience (we see this also in Europe), but he doesn't do this in the EAFF either, which you would've thought was an ideal opportunity.

As an aside, this comment in the Guardian article from yokofoxes deserves to be reposted here just for its local value;

@PakDooIk66 - The K-League is pretty bad viewing, I agree. Yes, to you who note they have won the ACL, that is true, but the quality on display in the K-League is often very poor, I live in Korea and don't watch it but when I lived in Japan I was a regular at the J-League. A big reason why the Koreans have dominated recently is that Japanese teams have often gone into the ACL not caring about winning it, Kashima Antlers are notorious for this. That the K-League is perhaps the second league in Asia speaks more about the lack of quality elsewhere than the quality of the K-League.

Roarchild
Kim Byung-ji's hairdresser
Kim Byung-ji's hairdresser
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:26 pm
Location: Songtan
Contact:

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby Roarchild » Wed May 29, 2013 2:10 pm

eujin wrote:Hey nzfooty! Welcome back! I trust all is well with you.

No one in the article seems to be relating Australia's relative decline to their move from the OFC to AFC, although they seem to coincide reasonably well time-wise. A lot of the blame seems to go on Osieck for not developing younger players. One might argue that a relatively easier path to the World Cup allows the national coach to bleed more younger players than needing to rely on experience (we see this also in Europe), but he doesn't do this in the EAFF either, which you would've thought was an ideal opportunity.



Spot on about Osieck. He has missed his moment. He is very slow to out faith in young players even when to me it looks less risky to go with them rather than stick with players who are declining and moving to lesser leagues (from where they were in Europe) in West Asia.

Tommy Oar might finally be given a starting spot now that he has been voted as one of the top 10 players in the Dutch league. Instead of him we were playing Alex Brosque who was never that great (his time in the J league was his peak) and is now in West Asia.

Rhys Williams is admittedly out of form but he is captain at Middlesborough and didn't even get a spot in the squad.

I think the decline isn't related to joining Asia as surely that has been a positive on all levels. It has probably slowed the decline somewhat by allowing some players to get a higher level of football as a plus 1 visa spot that they wouldn't normally get.

The last generation of players came from the first big boom in player numbers (early 80's) which has been maintained but the last generation usually had the benefit of qualifying for a European passport through their parents or grandparents whereas for this generation they have to try and make it as a Visa player rather than an EU one. That is a huge difference because while I don't think the standard of Australian player has fallen they are now competing against South Americans, Africans and the rest of the developing football world (which has improved greatly) for limited spots.

The Korean and Japanese league at least provide a destination where an Australian passport is a benefit rather than a hindrance.

The K league hasn't really been that kind to Australian's though. It was the making of Sasa (and Cornthwaite) as a Socceroo but most seem to have gone backwards.

Devere seems to do okay when he is not injured.

People like Wilkinson, North, Mckay, Burns, Simon never seemed to get a fair go. And a few of them had strange falling outs with management.

User avatar
SaintsCanada
National League champion
National League champion
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:04 pm

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby SaintsCanada » Wed May 29, 2013 4:18 pm

Roarchild wrote:
eujin wrote:Hey nzfooty! Welcome back! I trust all is well with you.

No one in the article seems to be relating Australia's relative decline to their move from the OFC to AFC, although they seem to coincide reasonably well time-wise. A lot of the blame seems to go on Osieck for not developing younger players. One might argue that a relatively easier path to the World Cup allows the national coach to bleed more younger players than needing to rely on experience (we see this also in Europe), but he doesn't do this in the EAFF either, which you would've thought was an ideal opportunity.



Spot on about Osieck. He has missed his moment. He is very slow to out faith in young players even when to me it looks less risky to go with them rather than stick with players who are declining and moving to lesser leagues (from where they were in Europe) in West Asia.

Tommy Oar might finally be given a starting spot now that he has been voted as one of the top 10 players in the Dutch league. Instead of him we were playing Alex Brosque who was never that great (his time in the J league was his peak) and is now in West Asia.

Rhys Williams is admittedly out of form but he is captain at Middlesborough and didn't even get a spot in the squad.

I think the decline isn't related to joining Asia as surely that has been a positive on all levels. It has probably slowed the decline somewhat by allowing some players to get a higher level of football as a plus 1 visa spot that they wouldn't normally get.

The last generation of players came from the first big boom in player numbers (early 80's) which has been maintained but the last generation usually had the benefit of qualifying for a European passport through their parents or grandparents whereas for this generation they have to try and make it as a Visa player rather than an EU one. That is a huge difference because while I don't think the standard of Australian player has fallen they are now competing against South Americans, Africans and the rest of the developing football world (which has improved greatly) for limited spots.

The Korean and Japanese league at least provide a destination where an Australian passport is a benefit rather than a hindrance.

The K league hasn't really been that kind to Australian's though. It was the making of Sasa (and Cornthwaite) as a Socceroo but most seem to have gone backwards.

Devere seems to do okay when he is not injured.

People like Wilkinson, North, Mckay, Burns, Simon never seemed to get a fair go. And a few of them had strange falling outs with management.


The most recent word on Burns is that his long-term injury saw him gain weight, lose speed, and that in training he simply doesn't have the ability to compete for spots with his team-mates. Incheon have an absolute glut of wingers and Burns isn't even competitive with them. I think it's just one of those cases where knee/leg injuries undo a players' career.

It is ironic, because Incheon nearly always sign their foreign players on loan or one-year contracts. Burns is in the middle of a 3-year deal, but I fear his career is essentially finished. Maybe he can reinvent himself at a different position.
오오오오오, 나의 사랑 인천 에프시!

User avatar
just because
Propping up the K2
Propping up the K2
Posts: 2902
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:57 pm
Location: Changwon

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby just because » Wed May 29, 2013 6:58 pm

So many young and potential very decent players all waiting in the wings...Oar is one I thought would have well and truly broke through by now. Rogic and Langerak look great as well.

Bit worried about up front though, I can't see anybody that will be a regular goalscorer in the top 50 in the socceroos, both old and youth players. Its a worry.

User avatar
Frontierman
Kim Byung-ji's hairdresser
Kim Byung-ji's hairdresser
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:32 pm

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby Frontierman » Thu May 30, 2013 10:33 am

Not exactly sure what the Burnsy situation is. Heard the fitness thing earlier, here, but photos posted of pre-season camp showed him in good condition. The knee is Appar' good and ready to go. The current manager at Incheon is not the one who got him to the club and team sheets from last weeks game showed an all South Korea starting XI. ?

Burnsy back in Australia at the moment. As per national team I hope he takes a marq'spot back in the A-League so as Holger recalls him. Holger's policy of the boys needing to play for call-up in theory is good but I have my doubts.

Holders got A-Leaguers in his national squad that Burns would make look silly. Melbourne Victory have room I think with Rojas going to Germany, Hernandez and Harry Kewell gone. Just a thought. On a wing next to Archie Thompson would be very exciting.
*******Come on Incheon*******
Adelaide United
Patty Mills is at San Antonio Spurs. Go Patty you little champ.

User avatar
SaintsCanada
National League champion
National League champion
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:04 pm

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby SaintsCanada » Thu May 30, 2013 11:22 am

Frontierman wrote:Not exactly sure what the Burnsy situation is. Heard the fitness thing earlier, here, but photos posted of pre-season camp showed him in good condition. The knee is Appar' good and ready to go. The current manager at Incheon is not the one who got him to the club and team sheets from last weeks game showed an all South Korea starting XI. ?

Burnsy back in Australia at the moment. As per national team I hope he takes a marq'spot back in the A-League so as Holger recalls him. Holger's policy of the boys needing to play for call-up in theory is good but I have my doubts.

Holders got A-Leaguers in his national squad that Burns would make look silly. Melbourne Victory have room I think with Rojas going to Germany, Hernandez and Harry Kewell gone. Just a thought. On a wing next to Archie Thompson would be very exciting.


Yeah, this week there were no foreign-players in the starting 11. Diogo is coming back from injury, and Seol Ki-Hyeon has, in fairness, been playing too good to drop. Jiago is more or less a super-sub -- Kim Bong-Gil doesn't rate him defensively, he is the game-changer when we need a goal. I believe he also missed a match or two recently with injury. Francis, apparently, hasn't really made the cut -- although he was very good in the FA Cup match (against a team 3 divisions below, mind you). We have a glut of central-midfielders at the moment. But in the onslaught of matches coming up, we might see him get a match or 2. Diogo came on and scored a beauty, as Incheon smashed Busan 3-0 away from home.
오오오오오, 나의 사랑 인천 에프시!

Roarchild
Kim Byung-ji's hairdresser
Kim Byung-ji's hairdresser
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:26 pm
Location: Songtan
Contact:

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby Roarchild » Thu May 30, 2013 4:50 pm

just because wrote:So many young and potential very decent players all waiting in the wings...Oar is one I thought would have well and truly broke through by now. Rogic and Langerak look great as well.

Bit worried about up front though, I can't see anybody that will be a regular goalscorer in the top 50 in the socceroos, both old and youth players. Its a worry.


Kruise had a good season in the Bundisliga. Leckie also got a lot of game time in Bundisliga 2.
Holger seems to treat Krise pretty badly though. The last coupleof games he has looked our most likely to do something but he is the first subbed off while Brosque stays on.

There are a couple of raw talents in the A league who haven't really started putting the goals away but have some potential. Balbaj at Heart, Taggart at the Jets and Duke at CCM.

User avatar
eujin
K-League Classic champion
K-League Classic champion
Posts: 5142
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:04 pm
Location: Hanover, Germany

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby eujin » Thu May 30, 2013 6:30 pm

Roarchild wrote:Kruise had a good season in the Bundisliga. Leckie also got a lot of game time in Bundisliga 2.
Holger seems to treat Krise pretty badly though. The last coupleof games he has looked our most likely to do something but he is the first subbed off while Brosque stays on.

Kruse had an OK season that trailed off a bit towards the end. His club didn't have a good season at all, but he's managed to get himself a decent job for next year. Leckie's team did a lot better but 4 goals in a season for an international striker is not a lot in a second tier league. It doesn't match up too well with someone like Jordan Rhodes for example, not to say anything of a certain Mr Son.

I wonder if part of the reason the FFA stick with Holger is so the fans can chant "Osi, Osi, Osi", given what a central pillar of Australian culture that song is. In Germany the fans often chant (to roughly the same melody) "wieder Eck, wieder Eck, wieder Eck", which translated means "corner again, corner again, corner again." Put the two together and you'd pretty much have it.

User avatar
just because
Propping up the K2
Propping up the K2
Posts: 2902
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:57 pm
Location: Changwon

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby just because » Thu May 30, 2013 7:34 pm

Roarchild wrote:
just because wrote:So many young and potential very decent players all waiting in the wings...Oar is one I thought would have well and truly broke through by now. Rogic and Langerak look great as well.

Bit worried about up front though, I can't see anybody that will be a regular goalscorer in the top 50 in the socceroos, both old and youth players. Its a worry.


Kruise had a good season in the Bundisliga. Leckie also got a lot of game time in Bundisliga 2.
Holger seems to treat Krise pretty badly though. The last coupleof games he has looked our most likely to do something but he is the first subbed off while Brosque stays on.

There are a couple of raw talents in the A league who haven't really started putting the goals away but have some potential. Balbaj at Heart, Taggart at the Jets and Duke at CCM.


Kruse is someone who was in the back of my mind when I was making the comment about Aussies having no firepower. Looking at wiki it seemed he wasnt really doing the job at Dusseldorf but with Bayer Leverkusen interested what do I know???

Roarchild
Kim Byung-ji's hairdresser
Kim Byung-ji's hairdresser
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:26 pm
Location: Songtan
Contact:

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby Roarchild » Fri May 31, 2013 10:08 am

just because wrote:
Kruse is someone who was in the back of my mind when I was making the comment about Aussies having no firepower. Looking at wiki it seemed he wasnt really doing the job at Dusseldorf but with Bayer Leverkusen interested what do I know???



His team got relegated so you wouldn't expect great stats from any of them. 4 goals and 8 assists from 28 in the League is all right.

My comments were more based on his Socceroo form though. He definitely looks like one of our better players.

The dour 4-4-2 we play with two holding midfielders in the centre and a stack of long balls isn't going to keep us in the top echelon of Asia. We need to be more dynamic and mobile. Players like Leckie, Kruise, Holman, Zullo and such will be really exciting once we move on to a better style of play.

User avatar
nzfooty
K-League Classic champion
K-League Classic champion
Posts: 6004
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby nzfooty » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:04 am

eujin wrote:Hey nzfooty! Welcome back! I trust all is well with you.

No one in the article seems to be relating Australia's relative decline to their move from the OFC to AFC, although they seem to coincide reasonably well time-wise. A lot of the blame seems to go on Osieck for not developing younger players.
[/quote]

Thanks eujin. Hope you are well as well. I have been really busy recently and the odd drunken posts tends to end up on Facebook these days. I hope to be a more frequent visitor here soon though, I think I have my OCD issues in check finally. :lol:

As for Australia's move to the AFC - you are right it coincides with a relative decline in Australia's fortunes. However, on the face of it, it is quite difficult to see how going from playing the likes of Tahiti and Fiji, to playing Japan and Iraq would not improve standards in Australia. The age group teams still seem to regularly qualify for major tournaments (though not as often as in Oceania where they were pipped by NZ on very infrequent basis).

However, in some cases a move to a stronger confederation is not a good idea. Kazakhstan moving to UEFA from AFC seems like a money motivated idea. They could've been a real force if they remained in Asia. It's not as if the huge distances involved in travel changed after they joined UEFA.

Back to Australia, I have read comments that the lack of young talent is down to some decisions taken with youth leagues in Australia about a decade ago. That seems like a good candidate to me.

How would you make a case for Australia's relative decline being down to their move to the AFC?

User avatar
eujin
K-League Classic champion
K-League Classic champion
Posts: 5142
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:04 pm
Location: Hanover, Germany

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby eujin » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:59 pm

nzfooty wrote:How would you make a case for Australia's relative decline being down to their move to the AFC?

Good to hear things are well.

I don't think I would necessarily argue that joining the AFC has led them downwards, especially after they qualified for the WC. Others on here know a lot more about the Aussie team than I do and it sounds to me as if a lot of it comes down to the choice of coach and development. With stronger opponents maybe you make a team that is harder to beat, which works better against the top teams, but doesn't look as good as when you're flowing forward freely against the likes of Tahiti and Fiji. And you are probably forced to be a bit more conservative in your squad choices as the margin for error is much smaller. Maybe they're a bit more jaded now than they used to be and expectations are higher; been there, done that, not as exciting as it used to be.

There has to be a cost associated with flying trans-continental several times a season for the Europe and Middle East based players. Difficult to quantify but I know it would wipe me out, especially when European clubs tend to push their players to the limit anyway and then some of them get on a plane and fly off to the other side of the world and reverse season every so often.

geu-nyang
Korean football wannabe
Korean football wannabe
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: Socceroos' future set to be decided in Asia

Postby geu-nyang » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:32 pm

Hey just a reminder that the EAFF is next month- there is another thread with some more info for anyone that wants to join the aussie supporters group :bounce:


Return to “Football in Asia”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest