ACL - to defend or not?

AFC Champions League, Asian Cup, and everything else domestic and international.

Should ACL winners be allowed to defend their trophy automatically the following year?

Yes.
17
85%
No.
3
15%
 
Total votes: 20

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eujin
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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby eujin » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:58 pm

I thought we were more evenly split on this but it seems there's only one person arguing for the non "irrational" position. :wink:

It has happened three years in a row now that the ACL Champion has failed to qualify for the following year (the last team to do so were the mighty Pohang Steelers). It would've been fun to see how Al Sadd got on last year, but they failed to qualify from their domestic comps. The Qatari champions, Lekhwiya. finished bottom of their ACL group - that wasn't much fun. One could also argue that it takes something different to win the ACL compared to the domestic league; playing against different syles, different climates, lots of travel etc. So maybe teams that win the ACL are better suited to doing well in the ACL than teams that do well in their domestic competitions.

I also think there's a difference between the tournament winner and runners-up etc. The winners are the only ones who weren't knocked out at some point. They're the ones who are on the unbeaten run and the ones that everyone wants to beat. It's not quite the Ranfurley Shield of NZ rugby or Rothesay's World Champions, but something like that.

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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby Alex43 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:25 pm

i want to add that i think korea is in a unique position because we are given so many spots. lets say in OZ, where there is 1.5 spots (one spot and a playoff) it would be unfair to take the league champ out of the ACL. but korea has 4 spots, FA cup, 1 and 2 in the league, and then the ACL champion, 4th spot, if not claimed, goes to next in the tables.
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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby daeguowl » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:53 pm

eujin wrote:I also think there's a difference between the tournament winner and runners-up etc. The winners are the only ones who weren't knocked out at some point. They're the ones who are on the unbeaten run.


They could have finished second in teheir group with a relatively low number of points...

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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby eujin » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:00 am

daeguowl wrote:
eujin wrote:I also think there's a difference between the tournament winner and runners-up etc. The winners are the only ones who weren't knocked out at some point. They're the ones who are on the unbeaten run.


They could have finished second in teheir group with a relatively low number of points...

They could have lost a semi-final leg, but that didn't knock them out.

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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby anamerican » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:54 am

And what would it mean if the defending champion kept getting knocked out in the group stage?

Look over the last, say five years, how many teams have routinely qualified?
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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby anamerican » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:01 am

Non of your arguments for including the defending champion are based on any logic. You're all using some useless tradition or haphazard emotional appeals.

A vast majority of voters opinions doesn't equal reasoned logic.
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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby Holyjoe » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:13 pm

anamerican wrote:Non of your arguments for including the defending champion are based on any logic. You're all using some useless tradition or haphazard emotional appeals.

A vast majority of voters opinions doesn't equal reasoned logic.


Eujin's provided the perfect logic - Ulsan qualified for the AFC Champions League tournament, they haven't yet been knocked out of it. Simples.

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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby anamerican » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:32 pm

That's not logical. The tournament is over. The next tournament qualification has begun and the team didn't qualify.

If the AFC said the champion qualified for the next year, it wouldn't be logical but of course the institution has the ability to make up irrational nonsense and call it traditional years later.
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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby Holyjoe » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:47 pm

Why would it not be logical? The ACL is a recurring competition with different tournament editions and Ulsan haven't been knocked out therefore why can't they compete in 2013 other than stating it's "irrational"?

Surely there's little logic and lots of irrationality in admitting non-champions to the "Champions" League? Or allowing a team that finished fifth overall to qualify for the ACL ahead of teams with better records just because they won a post-season play-off like Pohang did a few years back? If the ACL qualification criteria said that winners automatically qualified for the following edition then why would that not be logical?

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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby anamerican » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:18 am

Holyjoe wrote:Why would it not be logical? The ACL is a recurring competition with different tournament editions and Ulsan haven't been knocked out therefore why can't they compete in 2013 other than stating it's "irrational"?

Surely there's little logic and lots of irrationality in admitting non-champions to the "Champions" League? Or allowing a team that finished fifth overall to qualify for the ACL ahead of teams with better records just because they won a post-season play-off like Pohang did a few years back? If the ACL qualification criteria said that winners automatically qualified for the following edition then why would that not be logical?


LOL. To sum up your argument.... So because the whole competition is set up irrationally, having the champion defend their title is logical. LOL. Which it's not.

I now announce victory. It is not logical to have the champion defend. Now watch the AFC restart the "tradition"
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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby Holyjoe » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:47 pm

Perhaps you're trying to outdo weka in the trolling stakes here and I'm daft for even pursuing this, but that's not the argument at all and you know it. Have a go at answering the questions in that post though as in the face of all the reasoning you've been provided with from those in favour in this thread, at the moment your position is essentially 'they shouldn't because I don't like the idea'. Hurrah for logic. Go on, give it a go.

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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby SteveW » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:04 pm

No need to bring logic into it. The rules are completely arbitrary as they are for all sport. The ACL decided they wanted it a certain way so it is that way, if they want it another way it can be that way too.

To be honest I doubt it makes any difference to anyone except fans of Ulsan (and even they might not be that bothered about it)
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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby eujin » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:37 pm

I genuinely thought that we were more evenly split on this question, so I'm surprised to see the votes.

It happened quite often in the earlier days of the European Cup that the defending champions went on to win the tournament without having qualified directly from their domestic leagues. Just think of the great teams of history: Real Madrid did it a couple of times in the late 50's, Herrera's Inter did it once, Cruyff's Ajax did it in the 70's, Sacchi's Milan team in the 80's and Brian Clough's Forest side. In fact Nottingham Forest have won the European Cup more times than they've won the English title (2 versus 1).

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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby Alex43 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:04 am

to be honest, if you are looking for logic, you might be searching for it in the wrong country.... after all, the KFA just made a new league, and named it k-league classic :D there was no logic in this, although i do think there is logic in my argument, it's not needed in this league
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Re: ACL - to defend or not?

Postby willamangiro » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:43 pm

In boxing or wrestling (ok, I know that isnt a 'real' sport!), if you want to win the belt that you're competing for, you need to beat the current belt holder in a fight. Why? Because in order to be the best, you have to beat the best. Now, obviously im not suggesting that the 2013 ACL winners should have to beat Ulsan (although that would be a fun 'winner stays on' competition, wouldnt it? :D ), that would be ridiculous. But at the very least the holders should at least be in the same competition.

Hypothetical example:

Ulsan make it through the group stage.
Then they lose to, say, Al Hilal in the first knockout round.
Al Hilal make it to the semi-final, but lose to Melbourne Victory.
Melbourne Victory lose the final to Suwon.

Suwon have, in a round about way, beaten the holders, because they've beaten the team, that beat the team, that beat Ulsan. It may be indirect, but its significant, because it means that the ACL champions are worthy champions- they have beaten the best sides in Asia, which must include Ulsan because they were the best side the previous year.

If you take the holders out of the equasion, you're essentially placing the 2013 Champions title of 'the best in Asia' in doubt, because they've never had an opportunity to face the current holders, or the team that beat them etc.



Imagine the NY Yankees won the MLB 10 years in a row. Then one year they couldn't play for some reason (some kind of debate over money perhaps). That wouldn't invalidate the winners victory that season, but it certainly would raise questions about whether they would have won it if the NY Yankees were competing. I think the ACL situation is very similar.
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