Forced Change

Discussion about the Taeguk Warriors.
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SteveW
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Re: Forced Change

Postby SteveW » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:39 pm

Just call me Nostrasteveus... from June last year.

"If I was HMB I'd be seriously thinking twice about the job.

He's a pretty young guy with decades of managing ahead of him....problem is, if he takes the job and goes to the WC and loses out in the group stage he'l get binned.... and then what?"
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Re: Forced Change

Postby SteveW » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:52 pm

Possible silver lining would be ELand now have an ideal candidate to set up the entire football side of the Woodland Ferrets. I'd be on the phone to him this morning if I was them.
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Re: Forced Change

Postby eujin » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:40 pm

Nostrasteveus, you're in good company as there are several people on BigSoccer who said similar things and SaintsCanada is giving us the withering I told you so sigh. Someone will pick him up and probably do well with him. If was him I'd go somewhere like Japan and haunt Korean football from abroad.

If they swapped him with Pohang for Hwang Sun-hong I actually wouldn't be too upset.

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Re: Forced Change

Postby daeguowl » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:39 am

eujin wrote:Nostrasteveus, you're in good company as there are several people on BigSoccer who said similar things and SaintsCanada is giving us the withering I told you so sigh. Someone will pick him up and probably do well with him. If was him I'd go somewhere like Japan and haunt Korean football from abroad.

If they swapped him with Pohang for Hwang Sun-hong I actually wouldn't be too upset.


If I was him i'd avoid the K-League. He's made a lot of people mad with B-clas comments.

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Re: Forced Change

Postby SteveW » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:52 am

daeguowl wrote:
eujin wrote:Nostrasteveus, you're in good company as there are several people on BigSoccer who said similar things and SaintsCanada is giving us the withering I told you so sigh. Someone will pick him up and probably do well with him. If was him I'd go somewhere like Japan and haunt Korean football from abroad.

If they swapped him with Pohang for Hwang Sun-hong I actually wouldn't be too upset.


If I was him i'd avoid the K-League. He's made a lot of people mad with B-clas comments.


To be honest, some of his comments sound like he might have had enough of football for a while at least. Wouldn't be surprised if he just became a pundit
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Re: Korean team arrives home

Postby eujin » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:59 am

theglobalgnome wrote:Manager Played Win% Loss% GF GA
Cho KR 21 57 19 38 20
Choi KH 13 46 38 23 20
Hong MB 16 31 50 15 21

Cho's stats are boosted by big wins over minnows India and Lebannon, but his record in friendlies against non-Asian teams is also better than the other two, including wins over Nigeria, Honduras, Serbia, and Ghana (in fairness, Choi only played three non-Asian teams and his two losses were against Spain and Croatia). Also, only Cho only lost two of his 12 competitive fixtures and one of those defeats was on penalties against Japan (the other the loss in Beirut that cost him his job). Hong's numbers, of course, look even worse when you add the three group games in Brazil.

All but three of Hong's matches were against non-AFC opponents and those three were against the three other EAFF teams right after he started. Hong's side beat three teams that made the WC second round; Greece, Switzerland and Costa Rica. Cho's team beat only Nigeria, in his first match. Most of Hong's matches were against teams ranked higher than Korea; Ghana, US, Mexico, Brazil, Croatia etc, the majority of Cho's matches were against teams ranked below Korea; Syria, Bahrain, UAE, Kuwait etc.

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Re: Forced Change

Postby SteveW » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:40 am

The more I think about the more it seems the biggest mistake Hong made was taking the job in the first place. He's now been hounded out by clowns that probably won't even watch the Asian Cup games he will no longer be in charge of.

The reality check needs to come. Korea did exactly as well as their ranking suggested they should. changing manager will fix nothing.

Anyone taking offence at the b class thing needs to grow up. Hopefully the same people don't have the hypocrisy to watch Stoke play
Sunderland on a weekend instead of going to a kleague match?
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Re: Forced Change

Postby eujin » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:55 am

SteveW wrote:The more I think about the more it seems the biggest mistake Hong made was taking the job in the first place. He's now been hounded out by clowns that probably won't even watch the Asian Cup games he will no longer be in charge of.

I doubt he'll have a hard time finding another job. It has damaged Korea's reputation more than it has damaged his. He was in the right place at the right time and got a chance to manage his country at the World Cup. If he'd waited four years there's no guarantee it would've worked out for him. Fergie's record at the World Cup wasn't great either but he wound up doing OK.

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Re: Forced Change

Postby daeguowl » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:15 am

SteveW wrote:The more I think about the more it seems the biggest mistake Hong made was taking the job in the first place. He's now been hounded out by clowns that probably won't even watch the Asian Cup games he will no longer be in charge of.

The reality check needs to come. Korea did exactly as well as their ranking suggested they should. changing manager will fix nothing.

Anyone taking offence at the b class thing needs to grow up. Hopefully the same people don't have the hypocrisy to watch Stoke play
Sunderland on a weekend instead of going to a kleague match?


It's hard-core K-League fans that are pissed off. They've been fighting for years to overcome the perception that the K-League is a boring inferior league and his comments have just set that cause back. Plastic EPL fans are probably just sitting back nodding and thinking "that's exactly why I dont watch K-League"

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Re: Forced Change

Postby OttoSilver » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:58 pm

SteveW wrote:The reality check needs to come. Korea did exactly as well as their ranking suggested they should. changing manager will fix nothing.


Agreed. Considering that the so called A-Class players who play in other leagues made up the bulk of the rather poor national team, you cant help but see it as obvious. If you are not as good as a bunch of players who are not exactly world beaters themselves, then how can you be included in an A-Class conversation?

Slightly off topic though...
SteveW wrote:Possible silver lining would be E-Land now have an ideal candidate to set up the entire football side of the Woodland Ferrets. I'd be on the phone to him this morning if I was them.

Can we just make that their name on this forum, please? I don't really care what their actual name will be because there is no way it will be better than this.
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Re: Forced Change

Postby SteveW » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:23 pm

eujin wrote:
SteveW wrote:The more I think about the more it seems the biggest mistake Hong made was taking the job in the first place. He's now been hounded out by clowns that probably won't even watch the Asian Cup games he will no longer be in charge of.

I doubt he'll have a hard time finding another job. It has damaged Korea's reputation more than it has damaged his. He was in the right place at the right time and got a chance to manage his country at the World Cup. If he'd waited four years there's no guarantee it would've worked out for him. Fergie's record at the World Cup wasn't great either but he wound up doing OK.


But Fergie had a club career in the bag already. HMB doesn't. If anything is obvious from this then it seems that managing Korea at the Olympics is probably not enough preparation for a World Cup. If he'd had a decent run starting with the Asian Cup in 2015 and into the next qualifying campaign he might have had time to build something with the squad. Being parachuted into a struggling side was always going to end in disaster. The KFA should have appointed someone just for the WC with the intention to hand over to Hong afterwards. He could have been involved as an assistant for this one.
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Re: Forced Change

Postby SteveW » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:29 pm

daeguowl wrote:
SteveW wrote:The more I think about the more it seems the biggest mistake Hong made was taking the job in the first place. He's now been hounded out by clowns that probably won't even watch the Asian Cup games he will no longer be in charge of.

The reality check needs to come. Korea did exactly as well as their ranking suggested they should. changing manager will fix nothing.

Anyone taking offence at the b class thing needs to grow up. Hopefully the same people don't have the hypocrisy to watch Stoke play
Sunderland on a weekend instead of going to a kleague match?


It's hard-core K-League fans that are pissed off. They've been fighting for years to overcome the perception that the K-League is a boring inferior league and his comments have just set that cause back. Plastic EPL fans are probably just sitting back nodding and thinking "that's exactly why I dont watch K-League"


If they are hardcore K-League fans then they shouldn't need to be told that the players are largely B-class compared to the guys playing in Europe. Getting butthurt over the truth is one of the things that holds back progress (and its not a uniquely Korean thing either)

The general consensus here was that the champions Pohang didn't have a single player good enough to make the World Cup squad. That says a lot.

The better question would probably be if the K-League guys are B-Class (and a B is still a good pass) then what does that make the guys in Japan, China and the Middle East? What can be done to stem the flow of decent players to crappy leagues merely to earn higher wages?
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Re: Forced Change

Postby eujin » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:56 pm

SteveW wrote:If anything is obvious from this then it seems that managing Korea at the Olympics is probably not enough preparation for a World Cup. If he'd had a decent run starting with the Asian Cup in 2015 and into the next qualifying campaign he might have had time to build something with the squad. Being parachuted into a struggling side was always going to end in disaster. The KFA should have appointed someone just for the WC with the intention to hand over to Hong afterwards. He could have been involved as an assistant for this one.

It's not just the Olympics though is it? He took the u20 team to the quarter-finals of the u20 World Cup. The u20 World Cup and Olympics are very similar to the full World Cup in terms of going away together for a whole month, travelling from venue to venue and coming up against teams and tactics from all over the world. He was certainly as well prepared for the job as someone like Sergio Pariahs was.

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Re: Forced Change

Postby SteveW » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:23 pm

eujin wrote:
SteveW wrote:If anything is obvious from this then it seems that managing Korea at the Olympics is probably not enough preparation for a World Cup. If he'd had a decent run starting with the Asian Cup in 2015 and into the next qualifying campaign he might have had time to build something with the squad. Being parachuted into a struggling side was always going to end in disaster. The KFA should have appointed someone just for the WC with the intention to hand over to Hong afterwards. He could have been involved as an assistant for this one.

It's not just the Olympics though is it? He took the u20 team to the quarter-finals of the u20 World Cup. The u20 World Cup and Olympics are very similar to the full World Cup in terms of going away together for a whole month, travelling from venue to venue and coming up against teams and tactics from all over the world. He was certainly as well prepared for the job as someone like Sergio Pariahs was.


He had tournament experience but had no top-level management experience. He had never really had to manage against experienced senior pros and other top-level managers.

I don't think Farias or anyone else would necessarily have done better at the world cup but that wasn't the point. He would have been expendable. Given a few years to build up to it and grow into the job I think Hong would have done really well. The KFA should have been smarter and realised that dropping him into the World Cup was basically throwing him to the wolves.

If he was being appointed today to take over from Farias or Gunes or anyone else there would be an optimism about things going forward. As it stands now, I don't see where the KFA go next in terms of building for the next WC. I don't think going for an up and coming Korean coach like Hwang is the answer right now - but who else is available that hasn't already had a go?

Bringing in a foreign manager for the Asian Cup would be a possible sticking plaster but not a long term answer.
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Re: Forced Change

Postby eujin » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:38 am

SteveW wrote:I don't think Farias or anyone else would necessarily have done better at the world cup but that wasn't the point. He would have been expendable. Given a few years to build up to it and grow into the job I think Hong would have done really well. The KFA should have been smarter and realised that dropping him into the World Cup was basically throwing him to the wolves.

The mistake wasn't so much appointing him when they did, but letting him go now. If you've got your best man for the job, but you're afraid to put in him for fear of failure, then you've got problems (they have got problems). Going forward, I don't think the type of experience that Hong had should be an automatic red flag to any promising candidate. Someone like Zaccheroni, Capello or Hodgson has got bags of experience managing against experienced senior pros and other top-level managers. Fat lot of good it does them.


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