Korean Football on Wikipedia

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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby kingkenny7 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:56 am

daeguowl wrote:
SteveW wrote:FC Seoul fanbase seems to be made up of quite a large number of hangers on and casual fans who will go to games sometimes if they have nothing better to do.

Even a lot of the foreign fans just drift there. A lot of their fans probably couldn't even tell you about their history and the club try to whitewash it.


Unfortunately in this case you dont have the faintest idea what you are talking about. FC Seoul fans are split down the middle about whether the club dates to 1983 or 2004. There is lots of argument back and forth extolling the pros and cons of each point of view.

Regarding the move itself I think it's wrong to blame GS. It is well-establised that the KFA was looking for a tennant for Sangam. The two candidates appear to have been Anyang and Busan. Why not Suwon you ask? 1. Samsung HQ is in Suwon and they have always played there. 2. They'd just been gifted a brand new World Cup Stadium. LG on the other hand is not based in Anyang nor had they played there from the day the club was founded.
Although there is no proof I'm sure most, if not all, Kleague clubs at the time considered bidding to move to Sangam. Dont blame the club that actually did it.


Well, GS is the stakeholder. Some shares go to GS as they agreed to move out from Seoul as well, and they marketed themselves as Anyang's club while they had been there. The marketing team even provoked the Anyang fans further saying "Come to Seoul and support us" after the move.
Of course, K League committee is the stupid arseholes. In 1994, when they set up the plan to make a city base home & away system which they implemented in early 1996, K League committee was branched out from KFA by then. They said "Foundation of Seoul club comes first than moving the existing team" but they ate their words later.

You can refer to the articles I mentioned at the bottom of this page. I made it in a chronicle order, so it's easy to track down what has happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dece ... n_K_League
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby SteveW » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:20 pm

The 'fans' might be split on it but i think you are talking about the hardcore supporter groups that are maybe 2000 or 3000? out of the typical crowd.
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby SteveW » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:36 pm

eujin wrote:
SteveW wrote:Eland have captured the top lazy to even go to games fanbase. A less lucrative niche.

I'd be interested to know how many go to Eland games that aren't employed by the group. Single figures probably.

FC Seoul fanbase seems to be made up of quite a large number of hangers on and casual fans who will go to games sometimes if they have nothing better to do.

Even a lot of the foreign fans just drift there. A lot of their fans probably couldn't even tell you about their history and the club try to whitewash it.

With your business hat on, you have to admit that "fast-food football" has been a very successful business model around the world. If the Korean market was ripe for a fan-owned or community-owned club to do well we would have seen it by now. When you see your potential customer base as coming not from hard-core fans of Ansan and Yongin, but people who discovered football at the 2002 World Cup or fans of Manchester United and Barcelona who need to get off the sofa and come to the stadium, the GS approach has not been without success.

If GS had done something different and just sold the Anyang team in order to set up a new team in Seoul, would things have gone differently for them than for E-Land or Seoul United or Bucheon FC? The World Cup stadium is arguably a better football venue than the Olympic Stadium, but an MBA student studying this couldn't claim that E-Land learnt all the lessons of GS and did it better. Back in 2004 if GS had done exactly what E-Land have done, they might well not be where they are today in terms of success and fan-base. I really hope it works out for E-Land and there's still time, but I wouldn't want to be the football fan on the management team who needs to keep going back to the board explaining why this is still a good project to pour money into.


From a business point of view GS did two major things right that Eland didn't. Got there first and got the name right.

I see no reason to believe that if Seoul GS moved into the Olympic Stadium in 2015 they would be any better off than Eland are.

I don't really have a problem with fast food football if that's what people want. It's the pretending they are something else that sticks in my craw.

If i was in charge at eland it would have been a circus more than a football team but we wouldn't be pretending to have a history and integrity we don't have.

The other thing that irks me is the double standard because you just know if GS turned round tomorrow and said we have decided to move to Sejong City the fans would be up in arms about it.

Anything they ever achieve for me is tarnished because they decided to switch the game to the easy setting by moving to Seoul.

The Rangers of the Kleague for me.
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby eujin » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:51 pm

SteveW wrote:I see no reason to believe that if Seoul GS moved into the Olympic Stadium in 2015 they would be any better off than Eland are.

The main reason I see is that getting a club up and running is a lot easier if you already have a squad and staff set up and ready to go, both from the business side and the sporting side. You already have all the bank accounts and the training bibs and the bus driver. That's the key business argument for moving a team rather than starting a new one. There aren't really any teams in Korea that have been successful in an athletics stadium though. Seongnam sort of maybe, before they went public and ended up in Div 2. But even most of their success came before the World Cup stadiums got going.

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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby kingkenny7 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:47 pm

Well I will translate the 'Decentralization Policy' article for you guys. It is simply obvious that they needed someone to pay the money for WC Stadiums, particularly in Seoul.
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby SteveW » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:00 pm

eujin wrote:
SteveW wrote:I see no reason to believe that if Seoul GS moved into the Olympic Stadium in 2015 they would be any better off than Eland are.

The main reason I see is that getting a club up and running is a lot easier if you already have a squad and staff set up and ready to go, both from the business side and the sporting side. You already have all the bank accounts and the training bibs and the bus driver. That's the key business argument for moving a team rather than starting a new one. There aren't really any teams in Korea that have been successful in an athletics stadium though. Seongnam sort of maybe, before they went public and ended up in Div 2. But even most of their success came before the World Cup stadiums got going.


If you are talking specifically about relocating then ok but then the main benefit would be taking half the supporters with you.

That wasn't really an option for Eland nor would I have wanted them to pursue it.

I don't think the faults at Eland were to do with the practicalities of the team staff or ground. Those bits they did pretty well.

I think the biggest issue was the branding as Eland and a failure to really capture the imagination of the community. There was definitely a disconnect between the marketers wanting to have an organic grassroots football culture from a completely artificial manufactured brand new club in a place with next to no football culture. They should have embraced that and gone with trying to attract non football fans but instead they ended up trying to capture the fanbase that were already going to GS games.

Think they completely missed the mark in the way they went about things.
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby OttoSilver » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:18 am

SteveW wrote:The other thing that irks me is the double standard because you just know if GS turned round tomorrow and said we have decided to move to Sejong City the fans would be up in arms about it.


Some fans, but likely only those who came AFTER the move. I know I'm just one person, but I would be nothing more than annoyed. This is Korea, not Europe. Teams can and do move. (It also helps that I come from a country where teams move around, all be it in the general area. The team I kind of support is called Mamelodi, but have played large parts of their history outside of that city.)

If Seoul were to announce a move then I guess would just have to shlep to Suwon City instead. The worse that could happen there is they could cease to exist. Of course, if Seoul just decided to hop on over to, say, Incheon, then I would just say "Farckit, I guess I'm traveling to Incheon now". Unlike Anyang, or other people who never supported the team anyway, I would not mope about it for years to come.

Also, I fall into the category that the history before they moved to Seoul is either or. I rarely look at their results before the move and say "Mah team's got history!". If they decide to wipe that from their records then I'd feel very "Meh" about it.

Far be it from me to suggest you all have got something better to worry about than the goings on of a team you don't even support.
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby eujin » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:33 am

OttoSilver wrote:Far be it from me to suggest you all have got something better to worry about than the goings on of a team you don't even support.

Yes, that would be a silly thing to suggest, especially on a football forum where we've all been discussing about teams we don't support for years. :smt118

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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby SteveW » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:13 am

OttoSilver wrote:
SteveW wrote:The other thing that irks me is the double standard because you just know if GS turned round tomorrow and said we have decided to move to Sejong City the fans would be up in arms about it.


Some fans, but likely only those who came AFTER the move. I know I'm just one person, but I would be nothing more than annoyed. This is Korea, not Europe. Teams can and do move. (It also helps that I come from a country where teams move around, all be it in the general area. The team I kind of support is called Mamelodi, but have played large parts of their history outside of that city.)

If Seoul were to announce a move then I guess would just have to shlep to Suwon City instead. The worse that could happen there is they could cease to exist. Of course, if Seoul just decided to hop on over to, say, Incheon, then I would just say "Farckit, I guess I'm traveling to Incheon now". Unlike Anyang, or other people who never supported the team anyway, I would not mope about it for years to come.

Also, I fall into the category that the history before they moved to Seoul is either or. I rarely look at their results before the move and say "Mah team's got history!". If they decide to wipe that from their records then I'd feel very "Meh" about it.

Far be it from me to suggest you all have got something better to worry about than the goings on of a team you don't even support.


I find the whole question quite fascinating that's why I discuss it.

You say you would support your team if they moved to incheon and wouldn't be phased. Fair enough. What if they started to wear blue and black. What if they called themselves incheon united. What if they replaced their entire squad with the incheon united squad. At what point would it cease to be your team? If you would still support them after those changes then why not just support incheon now?

What is it that makes the difference?

A football team is a hell of a thing to try to pin down.
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby kingkenny7 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:37 am

eujin wrote:
OttoSilver wrote:Far be it from me to suggest you all have got something better to worry about than the goings on of a team you don't even support.

Yes, that would be a silly thing to suggest, especially on a football forum where we've all been discussing about teams we don't support for years. :smt118


I've heard that phrase from FC Seoul fans from many years - "you are not even Anyang fans, are you?" No, but K-League fans step in it due to it could be happening to any of K-League teams in any minute.

Why Ulsan fans were so anxious when the Hyundai said they will do a game in Seosan per year previously? Why 70-ish Bucheon fans and Anyang fans joined Seongnam fans protest against the possible club move to Ansan in 2013?

Because all the football fans don't want to, that's why they are so scorn to FC Seoul. Jeju United's a bit different - the fans know that the club hurt Bucheon fans and came into Jeju so they flew the banner in the first game, "Apologies to Bucheon Citizens" and turn their back to the field for first 10 mins. Also they said that they will accept any critisism againg them & the club, announced the statement that they understood the move from Bucheon is not acceptable for Bucheon citizens and such.

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But what FC Seoul and their majority fans have done? Completely denying that it is wrong, saying that it is "fair return" to Seoul as they have been kicked out from Seoul, which they agreed to move out. That's why the FC Seoul fans in Wikipedia is dying to keep the document as the current novel-ish status as it is their bible and doctrine.

As a Seongnam fan, yes we didn't do the similar activities - the fans back in time made excuses as they had no time for it as the first priorities were fighting against the local government of Seongnam and the local Christians who want to expel the club due to the background. But the atmosphere is, the fans accept and understand that we would be called as 패륜 due to we moved from Cheonan in any reason and we feel sorry for citizens in Cheonan. That's all about it.
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby MipoFanatic » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:35 am

Don't blame Sheffield Wednesday if Wakefield builds a new stadium...
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby OttoSilver » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:28 pm

SteveW wrote:You say you would support your team if they moved to incheon and wouldn't be phased. Fair enough. What if they started to wear blue and black. What if they called themselves incheon united. What if they replaced their entire squad with the incheon united squad. At what point would it cease to be your team? If you would still support them after those changes then why not just support incheon now?

What is it that makes the difference?.


I know you well enough to not thing you are stupid, but this example is. That would be called a change of ownership at Incheon with Seoul ceasing to exist. I won't support this "new Incheon" because there would be no connection other than the owning company.
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby SteveW » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:00 pm

How would that be a change of ownership at incheon? What's the difference? What if they did it incrementally over 5 seasons? At which point would it be a change of ownership at incheon rather than a continuation of Seoul? That's what i am asking. And what if incheon continued to exist?
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby SteveW » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:04 pm

If you don't like the hypothetical then let's take a real example. Ansan Gardeners. New club? Continuation of Mipo? Continuation of ansan?

Autocorrect changed greeners to gardeners. I'm keeping it. Haha.
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Re: Korean Football on Wikipedia

Postby eujin » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:24 pm

I'll take a stab at this one.

Continuity is important, but it's also important why you support a team. If your only reason is that they are the local team and they move to the other end of the country then that goes away. If you live on the other side of the world though, that might be less important. If you support them because your dad supported them, and your dad supported them while they were in another city, then maybe you carry on. Or if your third cousin still plays left-back. If you support them because of the way they are run, stick with the same manager for twenty years policy or their no-catholics, only players from the Basque country values, then there's probably some room to move about. If Rangers move to a new stadium in Coatbridge, most of their fans in Northern Ireland could probably live with that, because sectarianism transcends south Glasgow. If the club moves with you to a new place because Stalin has booted you all out then probably you start supporting them more. It probably matters a lot what your friends think. If they're all outraged, it's harder to keep going, whatever their reasons are.

There are also a bunch of reasons why you might give up supporting a team even if they don't move. We almost saw this with the Gyeongnam boys giving up on their team because they started fixing matches and running the club into the ground.


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